As to your first point, the best example of what I had said is John the Baptist, who was certainly a preacher, but was also considered to be Elijah, the prophet, even by Christ himself.

As to your second point, you don't seem to get my point that there are other hierarchies than the false hierarchy of the hypocrites in the churches. Of course, Christ opposed institutionalized religion, as do I. But that has nothing to do with the true Hierarchy that reflects the very structure of Being throughout this epistemological omniverse. That structure of Being is ensouled by the Gods and Masters of our legends, and it is that structure that constitutes the body of Christ.

I'm not sure what your point about John the Baptist has to do with my point about preaching and prophesying in a congregation which was a reply to your point about preachers being prophets which was apparently in reply to my point about how the practice of preaching is non-dialogical and fails to build community and is based on a theology which understands God as exercising authority OVER community rather than exercising an authority of love WITHIN community.

I'm not sure what your point that there are other hierarchies has to do with the point of this topic which has to do with communities of faith.

Did you want to discuss how Process Theology might affect our understanding of "church" and our practice of doing "church"? Are you involved in any kind of community at this point in your life? How would you define "community"? Do you see any need for community in your life? In the life of others? Do you believe there is a need to learn how to relate to others, how to encourage others, how to pray with and for others, how to dialog with others? If so, what would be the best environment for this learning to take place and how would or should it occur? What do you think about "healing communities"? Do you believe our involvement in community has any effect on our emotional, mental, and physical health? What about the idea of a "community hermaneutic"? Any ideas about the process of decision making within a community? Related to this, how should authority be exercised within a community? Should there be, or is there a form of discipline within community? If you are involved in a community, is it open (inclusive) or closed (exclusive)? How should a community designate membership - or should it? What are the advantages and disadvantages of intimate relations within a community? The dangers? In what way is Soteriology involved with ideas about community? And finally, how does Process Theology affect our understanding of all these issues?

Don

Re: John the Baptist, I was obviously giving an example of a time when the preacher was also a prophet, and therefore knew what he was talking about, was not a hypocrite, and therefore preached with the authority of a higher truth. You seem to exlude this as a possibility, or at least one that is desireable, thus excluding both Christ himself and his forerunner.

The community of faith should not take us away from reality, as though over here are concerns having to do with reality and over in this other place are concerns having to do with society and community. I suppose that is natural in a society that is so unreal, but with respect to all such "culture" I must identify with counterculture.

I take refuge in a college community, as probably you do as well. I think such communities would be great if we could just throw out the false hierarchy of the regents and authorities and have discussions, research, and study activities, independently of all structured authority. But of course that cannot happen on a large scale so long as the universities must function essentially as human factories for our very sick economic system, which makes whores of all those who allow it to.

As for deeper communion, you might say, I of course hunger for such relations. However, I am a bit pessimistic about achieving such spiritual intimacy (or any other type, for that matter) until the general atmosphere and attitude improves - until then the floggings will continue, as they say. As to how to improve the general atmosphere and attitude, I think it will take a miracle, namely the great miracle of the redemption, i.e. the Second Coming of Christ.

Explain please. To what are you referring as reality and how does a community of faith take us away from it? Also, how are you defining "community"?




So, it's either all or none? You don't see the possibility of making progress toward "deeper communion"? You can wait for "pie in the sky, by and by", but I think I want something in the present. Discussions we have in this topic could just possibly serve a practical purpose toward that end.

Well, I am just thinking of stuffy church congregations that are more occasions for social conformity than truth seeking.


I think we can certainly try to do what we can to improve the situation, such as voting for Kerry or engaging in meaningful dialogue, but I really do think the problems facing us are beyond our ability to solve. I believe with every fiber that the answer lies in the eschaton, which I believe to be immanent. I regard the counterculture experience of the 60's as the Rapture, and I believe the Second Coming is now immanent. Precisely, I put it in 2007 - I see the WTC event as the beginning of the seven year Tribulation.

I am a UCC pastor in a medium sized rural church. I have been preaching from a Process/Relational theology. When I arrived at my current church 3 years ago, I knew I had to go slowly. But, I see a definite path and I see many of the people in the chuch see themselves as growing into community instead of a static institution. Now many in this church community are expressing their faith with God's aim for themselves and their community in mind.

It is worth the effort to consider how our life and ministries affect others. Our ministries do not work in a vacuum. Every life inside and outside the church community is affected by our prayers and movements in God's aim. Little by little we respond as a church to God's aim and we are seeing a direction.

Jim,

Thanks for sharing your story. Can you fill in with a few more details, like:
-When you were hired were they aware of your theology?

-How did you overcome the difficulty (or did you) of putting Process Theology into language that the people in your congregation could understand?

-What evidence do you see that community is forming in the church?

-Are you nurturing this community in ways other than preaching? How?

-I suspect that preaching about God's "aim" is not much different than what one might hear on any typical Sunday morning from almost any pulpit. "This is God's will (aim)... go out and do it." Do your sermons differ from this and if so, how?

-Have there been any changes in the way your church goes about being "church" brought about by a Process/Relational theology?

I don't mean to "grill" you but I am very interested in dialog.

Don

Don,
Thanks for the interest. I was hired at my church three years ago. Putting Process Theology into the language of the people was very simple. People are naturally relational and can understand the words "connection" and "interdependent." I am not creating major shifts in their own way of thinking, just creating a new way to consider how they look at God. It is a slow process (literally).

Our community is beginning to understand that what they say and do does affect others and can have eventual global effects. They have begun to look beyond themselves. I consider this a major accomplishment in three years.

To be honest I mention Process Theology, but people's eyes glaze over. I merely stated a relational approach to God and life. They seemed interested in those ideas.

The community is slowly organizing to live out this idea of relational theology. Our mission team is forming with a broader understanding of mission--to touch lives with a purpose to seek God's aim--justice and peace. We speciufically are beginning a domestic violence outreach locally and disaster relief globally.

My sermons vary, but always include a connection to our lives as a community and God's draw to us to move in a direction that is best for us.

We are not a perfect Process Church, but we are mving in a good direction. I think the key is to make Process understandable to the people. And to do this speak in relational and holistic ways and model that as much as possible! Jim





When you were hired were they aware of your theology?

-How did you overcome the difficulty (or did you) of putting Process Theology into language that the people in your congregation could understand?

-What evidence do you see that community is forming in the church?

-Are you nurturing this community in ways other than preaching? How?

-I suspect that preaching about God's "aim" is not much different than what one might hear on any typical Sunday morning from almost any pulpit. "This is God's will (aim)... go out and do it." Do your sermons differ from this and if so, how?

-Have there been any changes in the way your church goes about being "church" brought about by a Process/Relational theology?

Don,
Sorry--I posted under guest. And then had a cut and paste nightmare! I did want to know about your experiences with congregations and Process.
Jim

Jim,

I came to Process Theology from Liberation Theology and my concept of "church" was influenced by Leonardo Boff. I was commended by the Open Brethren Assemblies to start and "pastor" a small house church in Wyoming. We were a demonstration of "punctuated equilibrium" in that being somewhat isolated from the main body of the Assemblies, we evolved into a somewhat different species.

This is how we did "church":

1. We practiced decision making by consensus rather than the democratic method.
2. We rejected the clergy/laity system.
3. Leadership was based on desire, gift, and community recognition.
4. The central focus of our gathering was a weekly common meal which was also the primary door into our community.
5. We did have a somewhat formal teaching service on Sunday mornings (our concession to those who were uninformed about what "church" was really all about, where we occasionally invited a "church professional" to speak which was always followed by a time of open discussion where the speaker or teacher could be questioned. Visitors who wanted to know more about us were invited to our community meal.
6. Ministry was open to anyone with desire and recognized gift. For instance, I ministered as a Police Chaplain for about 8 yrs. - almost two of those years in a full-time position.
7. We had a church softball team which beat the socks off all the other churches!

Does anyone have any good resources for baptism liturgies?

Susan,
If you can find any books by Ruth Duck that may help you with baptism liturgies. Also I recommend the United Church of Christ Worship Book. Is there anything specific you would like to see in a baptism liturgy?
Jim

I'll tell you what I would like to see, Jim - one that works, i.e. conveys the real power of the Holy Spirit to heal this sick and dying world.

Susan,
I scoured my library for baptismal resources and I came across two excellent books. "Models of Baptism and Confirmation and Baptismal Affirmation" by Robert L. Browning and Roy A. Reed. Another good resource is "Baptism in Water and Baptism in the Spirit: A Biblical, Liturgical, and Theological Exposition" by Philippe Larere.

I hope these give you some help.
Jim

DON wrote:
How about some discussion here about alternatives to the institutional church - or is there someone who seriously entertains the idea of reform?

As an ordained minister in a somewhat mainline congregation I see great value in trying to reform the church. I also see great value in preaching from a process/relational perspective. It is probably a very anti-relational stance to ignore or abandon our older and more traditional/orthodox members of the church. I have found a very positive response to my sermons and to the changes in the worship itself.

Process Theology does not expect us to forget the past. This would be a mistake. Rather it is good to recognize the past and see what direction the church can best move toward a relational worship and ministry.

Jim